Makeba Hardy Thomas, Former RIDEM Chief of Staff
Makeba: My name is Makeba Hardy-Thomas, I am the chief of staff here at the Department of Environmental Management. My job consists of several different aspects—it changes almost on a daily basis. I support the director, Terry Gray, in various projects he has happening throughout the department. A couple of projects I’ve been managing have a lot to do with the EJ communities. So, in reference to our environmental justice (EJ) policy, [I work on] ensuring DEM asserts a position of what we’d like to see happening in the EJ communities in regards to our stake and our responsibility that we hold to ourselves for providing assistance to those communities. In addition, internally I work closely with our employees for diversity and inclusion as well as community stakeholders to hopefully create those pathways within DEM to diversify our workforce here. That’s my role as of today at DEM.
Olivia: What attracted you to DEM?
M: At DEM, STEM [Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math] is the heart of what we do here. DEM has an enormous responsibility as a stakeholder to ensure that our constituents have safe areas to play with their children. [They should] be able to enjoy our natural habitats as well as be able to build in safe zones that will be healthy for them and their family. [DEM] was an area of the state I wasn’t familiar with, but what attracted me in addition to what they do is how we are connected in regards to natural resources and agriculture. We play an important part with that ecosystem. I didn’t necessarily know a lot about DEM. I am an operations person: my background is in banking and customer service. Coming over from the Governor’s Office, I was in charge of constituent and community outreach. Coming into this world of operations and overseeing projects is something I felt very comfortable with but in regards to the product, the environment is a whole new thing than what I’ve ever been exposed to. It’s an opportunity to dive deeper and learn different sectors of Rhode Island—things I’ve never been exposed to even as a kid. I’m from Providence. I never knew DEM was a thing and people are here that are scientists, so I was very intrigued to knock over those barriers in the Black and brown and Indigenous communities. I’m proof that there’s a lot more work that could be done to uphold DEM’s mission in regards to what they stand for and helping the community. There’s a lot of work to do and I’d like to help them achieve as much as I can.
O: That’s wonderful. It seems like there’s a lot of coordination between different agencies.
“DEM has an enormous responsibility as a stakeholder to ensure that our constituents have safe areas to play with their children.”
M: There could be more collaborations that could be done but a lot of us are going in different directions. We try our hardest to collaborate because it’s easier to collaborate then when you find out later that other groups are working on the same exact product and have already done the research you spent hours to do, that’s why it’s important to collaborate.
O: It’s really cool to see DEM going in a justice direction and seeing things as more intersectional than “oh, we just do permitting.”
M: Constituents don’t necessarily know everything we do. They only come in contact with us when they need to register a boat, and how many people really have boats? Or if you want to rent a space in one of our parks you call the parks but you don’t necessarily know it’s linked to DEM. You’re right, I think we’ve been known for [permitting] so riding that coattail has come to a halt. And those things are important, we still want to do them. But when it comes to equity across our state and who has access to those natural resources, it’s a different type of conversation.
O: Speaking of those natural resources, since our project is about air quality, I’m curious where you live in Providence and if you have any personal takes on your experience with air quality.
M: I live in Pawtucket but I’m on the borderline of Lincoln and North Providence. I grew up on the South Side of Providence. My take on the environment—I see coming from Pawtucket and living on the borderline of Lincoln that there are different resources that are not available where I grew up in Providence. A simple, simple example is parks in municipalities and where they reside. I live on the borderline, so I get access to these wonderful parks that have been rebuilt and are more tech savvy and have soft turf that the kids can land on instead of cement. That’s not how I grew up on the South Side. They have trees and flowers and things to make you feel like you’re in a natural habitat. It’s super cool. I recently went to Providence for a Juneteenth event and there was a playground right next door to where I grew up. That particular park had no swings, had metal bars, no trees, no flowers, hard cement, it just looked very bare and not well-invested. I give you that as an example because [it’s] something so simple and so minor you think would be available for everyone and it saddens me because I looked around that neighborhood and I looked at broken roads and flowers with waste and litter all around. And where I take my daughter normally, we don’t have that.
When you think of population and high traffic, that area consists of that. When I think of the environment, I think about pollution and air quality, the more cars and stuff in those neighborhoods because there’s businesses, especially in Providence. I want business to succeed but in the same light my eyes are more open to [the questions] “How can we help the environment and these businesses thrive?” and “What role and responsibility does DEM have to educate our small businesses and community partners and residents about how we need to take care of our environment for ourselves and our children?” Something as simple as a park. Why can’t children in this particular neighborhood enjoy the same things I enjoy on the borderline of Lincoln? Something so simple. My daughter is five and I had my newborn with me. My five-year-old recognized that this park didn’t have the same resources. If a child at five could recognize that, that’s an opportunity, that’s a conversation that’s got to be had. Then again it’s whoever makes the loudest noises get the most attention. Our communities don’t have the right vehicles or resources to know they can call or who they should hold responsible for those changes. And so, it brings me back to that diversity and inclusion conversation in DEM. Our role, responsibilities, strategy, and plan to support municipalities to achieve these things. That question was really deep for me.
O: Thank you for sharing so much. We’ve been driving and going to different sites around Providence. And you can so clearly see the difference in the parks, the playgrounds, tree cover, and the frequency of cars traveling through. What resources do you use to stay aware of air quality and if it’s bad what do you do? As an individual and DEM employee?
M: Great question. As an individual I rely on my meteorologist to tell me what the day is going to be, I tune into local stations and radio to understand what is expected that day. It doesn’t always change my day, because in all honesty what can I physically do to protect myself, right? Do I protect myself and my kids with a mask? What can I do? On the DEM level, reports are sent to me frequently about the air quality. I receive regular (three to four times a week) alerts from our meteorologist that sends out air quality concerns and things that are happening around town. It’s a very high-up overview of what’s happening. It doesn’t break it down to a city or town, just the state as a whole. So that’s how I stay informed. I don’t know any apps. I’m now reconsidering my thought process. It’s not something that has been on my radar.
O: Until I started this job I never really thought about paying attention to air pollution. Or I’d think about a lot of college students who live in Fox Point near the highway and I’d think, “Huh that’s probably not so good for our lungs.” But college students are such a transient population; we’re not experiencing the lifelong compound impacts of that and generally have good access to health care and other privileges. One app I use is called AirNow—it’s run by the EPA. DEM will do the forecasting and you can see that tomorrow’s expected to be moderate air quality and if you’re particularly sensitive to air pollution, consider doing your physical activity indoors or wear a mask. I think this information is especially pertinent for folks who are disabled, elderly, or children who might have more sensitivity to air pollution. That kind of brings me to the change that happens when people agitate the most. We see in South Providence and the surrounding area that people consistently come out against expansion of the Port and fight for environmental justice. What do you see as some of the biggest barriers to having a healthier Providence when it comes to air quality or natural resources?
M: Money! Money. Simple, money. Money. On the record, I will say unfortunately money really in certain cases is the driving force to why we have inequity in our neighborhoods. It is. No one can tell me anything different. It’s really sad. Kind of like a pair of shoes, you buy a nice pair of shoes and you expect them to last. And so money buys you quality. When you don’t put a lot of money into something it falls apart. It’s only sustainable for a certain amount of time. Not to put names on different shoe makers, but you know, if I buy a pair of Target shoes the quality is what it is. I don’t expect it’s going to last 20 years, I pay $20 and get my little sandals and once they’re done I throw them away. If I wanted Chinese Laundry shoes—it’s a great shoemaker and expensive depending on what you get. You can get some nice mid-level, dope shoes. That particular vendor is high quality, you can expect that money will buy you the best type of quality. I give you that analogy because I think about money like you were gonna get the most bang for your buck the more that you have. As a resident in Providence that may not own, just rent, the stakes are low. There’s nothing in their particular neighborhood…they don’t have much. Maybe they’re there because of school, it’s only a matter of time ’til they move out. And if you are living in Providence, which a lot of my family members are, a lot of them don’t have the income to buy a home. You get whatever you get, and unless you can come to the table by owning your own home and investing in the properties around you, you don’t have a stake. Providence is saturated with apartments, and those who may not have the means to go into the countryside and buy a piece of property where their environment is better than Providence. Where you’re paying for quality, you know, nice streets, nice post office, but in the city you don’t get that. We have powerful people that come into these cities and they have money and can predict how they’re gonna do business because there’s no other money fighting against their money. Money talks, it buys you quality, and it’s really sad.
“We have laws in place that will hopefully protect a lot of us but it takes a strong community to be informed.”
O: It seems like over and over Rhode Island politicians are like yes you’re my constituent, but I’m going to prioritize this business over you.
M: We have laws in place that will hopefully protect a lot of us but it takes a strong community to be informed, because guess how many people probably don’t know about that meeting in the community [about the pyrolysis bill]? Guess how many people don’t pick up anything that’s informing about what’s happening in their backyard? But think about their priorities: a lot of them are working two, three jobs—they ain’t got time!They ain’t got time for that, ain’t nobody trying to feed these hungry children at home while the mom is at work. So when there’s priority setting, it’s like, “Yes I do care about the environment, but I still need to feed my kids.” There’s a lot of people like that, my family members included, in Providence. It’s just really sad. It’s sad. People like myself and you are advocates and we’re trying to make these points known even though the people in these cities are not necessarily standing up and saying it, but that doesn’t mean they don’t want it. They just might not have the resources like everyone else to take time out of their day to go down to city hall or down to the state house and have a conversation about these issues. I could talk and talk for days…
O: You make such an important point about barriers to community organizing. So I’m curious, what information do you wish you had about air quality? How do you think this data, which will be monitoring multiple pollutants, could be helpful?
M: Knowing what I don’t know would be helpful for me. If you were to propose information or a strategy for capturing a lot of the pollution that is happening around the state, it will help me understand which areas are the most vulnerable. But then I question myself, what can I do about it? In the larger picture, a question for you is to do some research on grants that will help the issue. I think a lot of the time when we talk about these environmental issues, I always hear the problem but not the solution. I’d challenge you and this report to come up with possible ways to reduce or eliminate (totally impossible) any type of toxins or whatever that your report finds. I would be interested in knowing that [environmental solutions].
O: That’s a really great point. The RIDOH and American Lung Association do have some materials and recommendations for addressing bad air quality days, such as staying indoors, not running your lawn mower or charcoal grill in the localized area, but there’s also more systems-level stuff. As we develop a more electrified grid, we won’t have to combust as much fossil fuel and won’t put those emissions into the air. I’m also hoping to connect what we’re doing to some policies that are already legislated or being proposed about reducing diesel emissions. But as far as Providence specifically, my hunch is that it’s really the highways and the Port that are so damaging. And then it’s like—it would be great to kick fossil fuels out of the Port but I don’t really foresee that happening in our current political climate. But really forcing, even DEM… one of the scrap recycling facilities didn’t even have a permit and after people [were] agitated around it, DEM fined them. It’s becoming very apparent to me too that public transportation is really important to air quality, like if you can put 50 people on a bus instead of 50 people in 50 different cars all going the same direction. And then also improving accessibility and affordability, if it’s done well and doesn’t contribute to gentrification.
M: We’re the United States so…we’ve been pampered with “we have the right to.” That’s how we start our sentences for everything so we are unfortunately spoiled. There’s many countries that don’t have as many resources as we do. And they probably (I’m just guessing) don’t have the same pollution as we do because we have so much convenience and waste production. We’re spoiled. Most families have two or more cars. My husband and I have our own cars: he has his, I have mine, out of convenience to myself. I don’t want to have to wait for him and vice versa. A household that doesn’t have as many resources as I do will have one car or need to take a bus, but because of convenience I’ve made the choice to have a second car. I’m the chief of staff of DEM. I really should be doing the self reflection to say even though I have the convenience, how can I limit the amount of times that I take my car to work? Can I drop my three kids to their various places with one car? I just wanted to add that point because we’re here in the US and we’re very fortunate versus other countries. Who are we to inconvenience someone to take a bus? People will be like “me, bus?” If you get enough people willing to make a difference and put an incentive on it, they’ll be willing to make that change. Money is the root of all evil.
O: I think a lot about what makes it so convenient to drive is because it’s been designed that way. The car industry and fossil fuel industries have their claws in so deep that there isn’t enough public transportation to get around easily even in Providence. I have a bike and it’s not that safe to bike around here.
O: Is there anything I haven’t asked that you wish I had? Or a thought that hasn’t been said yet?
M: I would love for you to do a presentation for my team and get feedback or figure out what the task would be from you as a researcher from DEM. We want to know, “What don’t we know? What can we try to do better?”
